ARGH

[auronlu]

"I never understood why people liked pairing characters of the same gender together, or what gave people the idea that two characters were possibly in a romantic relationship—for any game, not just Final Fantasy XIII. I never personally tried to understand this because mentally, I could not imagine two characters of the same gender in a romantic relationship."

— well-intentioned, generally insightful commenter whom I really like.

The context: Dunquixote had a good write-up of first impressions about FFXIII. In response, among other things, I asked about how DQ saw the Fang/Vanille relationship. I should be able to accept differing interpretations.

However, "I can't imagine two characters of the same gender in a romantic relationship" seems a little different to me than "No, despite the hints, I don't think the game made it explicit what their relationship is."

I don't know how to respond tactfully. It's very important that I do respond tactfully, because this may be a moment for a little gentle consciousness-raising.

Except I can't, because I'm irked.

/frustrated

Comments

[cygna_hime]

...I would advise, but I can't think of a way to respond particularly tactfully, at least not by actually-tactful-people standards. What even is this.

[heavenscalyx]

Suggested, edit or ignore at whim:

In general, I think people like to pair characters of the same gender because a) it explores different relationship dynamics than the same-old-same-old straight relationships by breaking away from gender roles (or by exploring the problematics of gender roles in a relationship where the characters' self-identified gender may conflict with the gender role portrayed), b) it's still rather taboo, especially in videogames, to depict characters of the same gender in a relationship, or c) related to b, queer people want some way to see some of themselves in their media of choice. (Also d) there is a perception that the sexytimes are just more interesting to write than one's bog-standard het romance novel.)

I am unsure whether you mean that you could never imagine *any* characters in *any* media being in same-gender relationships, or that you just can't imagine any of the characters *in this particular game* being in same-gender relationships. Could you explain a little more here? For context as to why I'm asking, I am myself queer, and so I'm concerned about the former possibility.

[akycha]

Translation of the last sentence: I am concerned that you are a homophobic asshole, and I would like to know if you are, so I can avoid the fuck out of you in future.

[cumuluscastle]

Hmm. I think my response to this might be coloured by my relationship with my little sister. Grant you, she is only in gr 12, not a college student. I said much the same thing to her and I received a similar response (literally, we had a small talk about Fang/Vanille). She kind of wrinkled her nose and said she hadn't thought of it that way and explained why it seemed a purely friendly relationship to her. My parents are staunch Catholics, so I am careful when I have these discussions, as I have no desire to tell her what to think. I prefer to present my viewpoint without arguing. When she is unable to see things with slash-tinted glasses, I usually just explain my point of view (give examples from the game that I interpret as a romance) and leave it at that. She doesn't respond as strongly to the suggestion as your commenter did.

On the other hand, what you quoted doesn't seem to me to contain any animosity, it just states that the commenter isn't able to see that happening and 'doesn't get it.' What I'm saying is that, unless I am missing something, this seems more a case of poor wording or of understanding than of the commenter definitively stating that she is anti-gay. I could be wrong though?

I also like how heavenscalyx suggests that you explain why people do want to see same sex relationships where none have clearly been defined.

Another point, I think, is discussing how people will look for hints of romance between two opposite sex characters in lots of fan-works, like Fran/Balthier, or Ashe/Balthier or, well, there are an awful lot of examples in final fantasy where there is no firm text of a relationship, just a tantalizing subtext whether between same sex or opposite sex couples.

[auronlu]

I may try some variant of this after I'd chewed the cud some more. (Thanks).

[akycha]

Feel free to adapt what I said on the phone, too -- she's free to erase same-sex romance from her head because she is privileged. I may find het romance [not to my taste] but I cannot avoid it. I am not allowed to in our culture.

This isn't a case of poor understanding only, it's poor understanding that comes out of homophobia and a homophobic culture.

[auronlu]

Thank you. Yes. I don't want to be shrill, and I don't want to step on people with different upbringings, but...ergh.

I should note that DQ's comment, which I quoted above, followed directly on my saying this:

"I guess I’ve just been waiting so danged long. It felt like here, finally, were characters like me, and I didn’t have to project myself into a Squall or Tidus to enjoy that role. So when people dismiss what I enjoyed so strongly as a Fang/Vanille subtext, some part of me can’t help hearing it as, “Naah, you still don’t exist.” It’s hard for me to take a step back and discuss it dispassionately. "

So ... I've already stated that I feel erased by this conversation, and commenter then says another Erasing statement. Sigh.

It would all be so much easier if I'd change my old username, right? Riiiight.

I wanted to add

[cumuluscastle]

That I wasn't trying to say the comments weren't homophobic or very irk-inducing or that they shouldn't be addressed, just that in my experience with teens, although many of their schools have Gay-Straight Alliances, many of them are still poorly educated and that to me the comment sounded like it came from someone who didn't have a clue.

[auronlu]

Thanks.

(I always feel a little sheepish, since I've still got the other side of my bi brain, and here it is, right here, and you have to deal with it! That was part of the reason I partitioned off my FF fandom in a separate account in the first place, so that my hetero stuff would be Over There. But...as time goes on, I get tired of it too and crave the f/f crumbs where I can find them.)

Speaking of which...



The Utena visual quotes in this game were pretty danged blatant.

:(

[cumuluscastle]

That does paint the statements in a different light. Ugh. Video games are so rife with these kinds of attitudes. It's very sad.

I am also speaking from a place of privilege, so I am sorry if I sounded at all like I was trying to minimize how hurtful this would feel, especially from someone whose writing you've been enjoying.

Re: I wanted to add

[auronlu]

My first impression was "didn't have a clue" as well.

Which is why I feel like I should reply. Instill clue.

[sarasa_cat]

:C

Not sure if I have much to add because everyone else commenting here has already said what I would say although ... I'll send you a PM about something sort of related but off-topic.

But, as for something specific that really just reiterates what's already here, you said:

However, "I can't imagine two characters of the same gender in a romantic relationship" seems a little different to me than "No, despite the hints, I don't think the game made it explicit what their relationship is."

Yes, there really is a big difference between those two statements and yes you really should feel irked for being erased and yes I really think a tactful response is necessary. And if I was in your shoes right now, I admit I might have a hard time being tactful.

Sigh.

I *really* like how heavenscalyx phrased a tactful question, above. I second that. Wholeheartedly. I specifically like the second paragraph, the "I am unsure whether you mean that you could never imagine *any* characters in *any* media being in same-gender relationships, or that you just can't imagine any of the characters *in this particular game* being in same-gender relationships. Could you explain a little more here? For context as to why I'm asking, I am myself queer, and so I'm concerned about the former possibility." because that cuts right to the heart of the matter where as the first para wanders a little bit (but in a good way, but still, sometime points need to just be bluntly made.)

More elsewhere.

[samuraiter]

*thinks*

Maybe it's just me, but this is one of those things where it feels like there's a land mine just waiting to take a foot, and, if I were in your shoes, I'd turn and walk away with both feet intact, even if it's somebody you normally respect.

[auronlu]

Yeah. Well, I replied, but cautiously....aaaand I failed to take some of the good advice here. (One of my other commenters said what I didn't, also.)

[auronlu]

Oops. I wound up borrowing heavenscalyx's first paragraph instead of the second, although someone else did that bit for me.

I am mindful that this all started when I excitedly asked, "So, what did you think of Fang/Vanille?" after DQ finished playing the game. So I started this, and don't want to come off like someone laying down a "gotcha" trap.

Which I wasn't. I'm afraid that instead I was engaging in that intellectually lazy habit of asking someone who, I assumed based on our past conversations, would affirm my view.

[sarasa_cat]

BTW, for the first time in AGES (like, a year?) FFXIII is being played on my TV right now. (So pretty.) I'm not the one playing, just watching. And being reminded at how Squeenix puts so much effort into gorgeous environments and soundscapes.

LOL. Oh no, didn't realize you accidentally started the whole thing. Gah. Well, I saw how the whole convo resolved so I'd say it was all good in the end.

[auronlu]

Thank goodness. Confrontation makes me so nervous.

It is very shiny. I so wish that someone had sat down and revamped the plot/story into a well-paced, cohesive, flowing narrative once all the different creative teams had fine-tuned the environments, characters and game mechanics. It definitely smacks of production by committee.

It strikes me as being a good story in desperate need of an editor.

Despite that, I love the characters and landscapes of XIII enormously. (Then again, I come from the fine old MYST tradition of gaming: "Screw plot! Trap the characters in books so we don't have to do anything with them, and leave their journals and fascinating artifacts scattered about as clues that you have to piece together to discover the backstory! Explore explore explore puzzle explore! Setting and ambiance! Trancelike music! Here, have an interesting alien critter sunning itself on a rock! Have a gorgeous alien landscape! We don't need no frickin' story arc!"

[sarasa_cat]

I can be a bit of a pit bull at times given that confrontation is something I am expected to deal with in day to day professional life but, yeah, there are times in fandom when I just do not want to deal with it.

FFXIII feels so much like production by committee. I've more or less forgotten what the story is about but I don't really mind. Pretty is pretty. I just enjoy the shiny and am all "story? what story?" Yes, very MYST like: just enjoy the atmosphere.

[lassarina]

....I'm sorry but I can't see Fang-Vanille friendship over my absolute conviction they were bangin'. That bias being admitted, "I could not imagine two characters of the same gender in a romantic relationship" I can't...I....that's so offensive that I can't EVEN. I'm too annoyed to even come up with something less confrontational to say about it than GET OUT YOU ARE WRONG AND GROSS. *coughs* which is why it's good that I'm seeing this after you've responded to them, haha.

[akycha]

By the way "I can't imagine..." is "appeal to ignorance," a classic form of bad reasoning. I've just been reminded of this because HC showed me the delightfully illustrated Book of Bad Arguments:

https://bookofbadarguments.com/

[flynn_the_cat]

Huh, I read that post and I just read them as male. I'm not sure why. I usually don't ascribe a gender without strong indicators.

[flynn_the_cat]

I think it went well; I had a whole bunch of responses in my head, but you mostly covered them, so I just sat back and passed on (I think I was in a hurry catching up on stuff).

Assuming the best, that they genuinely just don't get it, because they never thought about it, and nobody sat them down and walked them through it, is probably the best possible response. If they DID mean it in bad faith then they get to pretend they didn't, and continue as a normal person, or just show themselves up as jerks and you educate everyone else. If they didn't mean it that way, then Good Has Been Done. It's having the patience and forethought to handle it with an open mind that is difficult.